Thank you for this tribute to these students. It takes me back to the 1960s when I was one of the ones protesting, on campus and in the streets of Los Angeles and San Francisco. A whole generation is being radicalized because those in power simply do not understand that the narrative has been taken from them and turned into a new one rooted in justice for all, not privilege for some.
The other book to read is also by Carolyn Elkins, "Legacy of Violence", outlining in detail how the British Empire acted with unmeasured brutality versus its coloinial subjects. Most pertinently it describes the roile of ex Black and Tan policemen in suppressing the late 1930's Arab uprising, with the help of zionist auxiliaries. Orde Charles Wingate was the person most responsible for British brutal tactics, and on his death Israelis paid tribute to him as the father of IDF tactics.
I am unsure, Joy, that you understand my position; and I am not sure I understand yours. You accuse me of ‘both-sides-ism’; clearly a category you have with specific implications. I would not say that both sides are in some sense equal in this conflict; clearly the Palestinians have been occupied illegitimately, and Israel has acted egregiously and in bad faith towards them. That does not change the fact that the October 7th attack was far outside the bounds of human behaviour acceptable in any context. I don’t know if you accept the reality of the actions; there is a strong stream of denialism, but as far as I can see the claims of rape and torture are true.
I do not accept the calculations of equivalence or lack thereof; whether these actions were ‘more’ or ‘less’ appalling that the mass destruction wrought by the Israelis. They are both monstrous, and nether is justifiable. They are both comprehensible, in the sense that they are both the result of accumulated generational trauma; trauma begets atrocity, and this does in no way excuse it.
None of this changes my belief that the situation with Israel’s occupation of Palestine is wrong; and, any ideas any of us have about what ‘should’ be done comes to grief on the reality of the extreme and entrenched attitudes; the only effect of atrocities on either side, regardless of our ideas about ‘justice’, will be to make matters even worse. Support Palestine, but condemn the atrocities! My belief is that this is the only stance one can take without compromising one’s humanity.
Finally, thanks again for the book references; I always knew the Israeli occupation was not legitimate, and now I am much more knowledgeable about it. And, nothing in these books tells me it is acceptable to…well, I won’t mention details, you either know them or choose not to.
I’ll say one more thing though: comparing the Oct 7th atrocities to the actions of the Israeli army: they are really incommensurable. In terms of numbers, the Israeli actions are orders of magnitude worse. In terms of total suffering, much worse. But in terms of inhuman sadistic brutality?
Please, if in any response to this you are inclined to use the word ‘colonial’—don’t. That is NOT the point.
Students at Columbia are suing their university administration. They are being represented by Palestine Legal. We can support them at: palestinelegal.org/donate
passing this along to Fakebook.. I want people to know about your writing and activities!! Love you, Richard for fighting the Good Fight! your friend, always - Cassie
I’m sorry, but I have to say I find this article very one-sided. I read a great many examples of egregious actions and statements by protesting students against Jews and Israel which cross way over the line, and I read protestations of peaceful intent by protestors which appear quite disingenuous. I find that both sides have committed appalling acts upon each other, and both sides have clung to ideologies which seriously distort reality. The absolutism on both sides is terrible to hear; people who so strongly believe themselves to be wholly and absolutely in the right, ready to treat the other side as inhuman. Shame on you, Mr. Eskow, for being someone with full access to information and yet who picks and chooses, finds excuses to invalidate the side he chooses to disagree with. And please note I am not picking a side; there are no ‘right sides’ in this conflict.
Peter, there are many books by serious historians, many from Israel who do not agree with your point of view. The issues are quite clear, and most of what has been propagated in the US media for decades has been one-sided and does not reflect the reality of the situation.
Two books you might start with are "Ten Myths About Israel," by Ilan Pappe, and "The General's Son," by Miko Peled. Both of these men are Israeli and have done the work of understanding what is the truth about what is going on, and they have written about this. From there, you can find many other great sources you never knew existed. It's not always easy to find the answers, but it's easier now, than before, as there has been much obfuscation, but it can be done.
Thanks for the book recommendations Joy. I have read the summary preface of 10 myths; and it is not clear to me that there is disagreement with my “point of view”. As I stated, my view is that both sides have committed atrocities in the recent past, the October 7th terrorism of inhuman rape, torture, and murder by Hamas, and the totally disproportionate destruction and killing of Palestinians by the Israeli army. Could it be that you somehow endorse, justify, or deny the Oct 7th actions of Hamas? Could it be that you believe that the colonial nature of Israel’s founding somehow justifies rape, torture and murder? Or do you believe those accounts are merely Israeli propaganda? I hope not! And also, I believe there is no justification possible for the extreme violence from the Israeli army, nor for the violence and illegal mistreatment of Palestinians by Israeli settlers.
Trauma begets trauma in an endless cycle, where ideology trumps humanity.
One does not have to justify atrocities to still be able to understand that both-sidism does nothing but serve the interests of the dominant power.
There’s another interesting book about the British in East Africa, Imperial Reckoning: The Untold Story of Britain's Gulag in Kenya, published in the UK as Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya, is a 2005 non-fiction book written by Caroline Elkins and published by Henry Holt. It won the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction.” (Details per Wikipedia.)
When I heard about October 7, I thought of Mau Mau, the anti-colonial movement that did encompass anti-white atrocities. I don’t have to approve of those actions to know that blaming both sides would be to benefit the colonists, and aid in their attempt to continue the colonial project.
Well, if anyone is still reading this, my opinions are pretty obvious. I’ll say one thing: the denial of the October 7th atrocities undermines the legitimacy of the Gaza protests.
Just wanted to say the sadistic brutality of the israelis far outweighs that of the Palestinians. Read on the sabra and shatila massacre or even the recent massacres of palestinians in gaza conducted by israeli soldiers shooting at cars and people indiscriminately. there are videos of them sniping children as they walk holding white flags. The brutality is clear
In terms of the condemnation of Hamas the reluctance to do so is not borne out of a lack of moral qualms with their actions. But rather with an understanding of the disproportionate suffering that the palestinians have experienced for the last 75 years. If you put yourself in the place of the Palestinians then you'll understand why resistance is an act of basic human dignity. Brown and muslim people using weapons shouldn't alarm you as they are the same as any other people. What happened on oct 7 was an oppressed people breaking free from an illegal occupation and returning to the lands that they were ethnically cleansed from. This is not unjust to say the least. Any and all atrocities committed find their blame on the zionist state in the first place for establishing a settler colony at the expense of the Palestinians and having them pay the price for european antisemitism. It just doesn't make sense to expect Palestinians to be perfect victims and subsequently condemn them. criticisms are usually fine but not when a genocide is taking place or when the boot of zionism is on the necks of palestinians as it has been for decades.
Finally on October 7 itself there is some doubt about exactly what took place. of the 1100 people that were killed approximately 300-400 were soldiers. If you find their deaths objectionable then there's no point in having this discussion.
From the remaining 600-700 civilians its clear that at least 200 or so were killed by the israeli military as per the hannibal directive. For the israeli military at the time its clear that they issued directives to kill hostages as hamas was carrying them away. Ie they would rather have them dead than taken as hostages. This is documented in a haartez investifation. Furthermore no babies were burned by hamas, these were burned by israel that used mortar fire against them. There is also no evidence of systematic rape to say the least. if rape did happen its of course condemnable but there's just no evidence of it happened systematically.
Thank you for this tribute to these students. It takes me back to the 1960s when I was one of the ones protesting, on campus and in the streets of Los Angeles and San Francisco. A whole generation is being radicalized because those in power simply do not understand that the narrative has been taken from them and turned into a new one rooted in justice for all, not privilege for some.
One love!
This is consistent with my experience. Thank you!
Great reporting. thank you!
The other book to read is also by Carolyn Elkins, "Legacy of Violence", outlining in detail how the British Empire acted with unmeasured brutality versus its coloinial subjects. Most pertinently it describes the roile of ex Black and Tan policemen in suppressing the late 1930's Arab uprising, with the help of zionist auxiliaries. Orde Charles Wingate was the person most responsible for British brutal tactics, and on his death Israelis paid tribute to him as the father of IDF tactics.
I am unsure, Joy, that you understand my position; and I am not sure I understand yours. You accuse me of ‘both-sides-ism’; clearly a category you have with specific implications. I would not say that both sides are in some sense equal in this conflict; clearly the Palestinians have been occupied illegitimately, and Israel has acted egregiously and in bad faith towards them. That does not change the fact that the October 7th attack was far outside the bounds of human behaviour acceptable in any context. I don’t know if you accept the reality of the actions; there is a strong stream of denialism, but as far as I can see the claims of rape and torture are true.
I do not accept the calculations of equivalence or lack thereof; whether these actions were ‘more’ or ‘less’ appalling that the mass destruction wrought by the Israelis. They are both monstrous, and nether is justifiable. They are both comprehensible, in the sense that they are both the result of accumulated generational trauma; trauma begets atrocity, and this does in no way excuse it.
None of this changes my belief that the situation with Israel’s occupation of Palestine is wrong; and, any ideas any of us have about what ‘should’ be done comes to grief on the reality of the extreme and entrenched attitudes; the only effect of atrocities on either side, regardless of our ideas about ‘justice’, will be to make matters even worse. Support Palestine, but condemn the atrocities! My belief is that this is the only stance one can take without compromising one’s humanity.
Finally, thanks again for the book references; I always knew the Israeli occupation was not legitimate, and now I am much more knowledgeable about it. And, nothing in these books tells me it is acceptable to…well, I won’t mention details, you either know them or choose not to.
I’ll say one more thing though: comparing the Oct 7th atrocities to the actions of the Israeli army: they are really incommensurable. In terms of numbers, the Israeli actions are orders of magnitude worse. In terms of total suffering, much worse. But in terms of inhuman sadistic brutality?
Please, if in any response to this you are inclined to use the word ‘colonial’—don’t. That is NOT the point.
Students at Columbia are suing their university administration. They are being represented by Palestine Legal. We can support them at: palestinelegal.org/donate
passing this along to Fakebook.. I want people to know about your writing and activities!! Love you, Richard for fighting the Good Fight! your friend, always - Cassie
Big hug, Cassie!
I’m sorry, but I have to say I find this article very one-sided. I read a great many examples of egregious actions and statements by protesting students against Jews and Israel which cross way over the line, and I read protestations of peaceful intent by protestors which appear quite disingenuous. I find that both sides have committed appalling acts upon each other, and both sides have clung to ideologies which seriously distort reality. The absolutism on both sides is terrible to hear; people who so strongly believe themselves to be wholly and absolutely in the right, ready to treat the other side as inhuman. Shame on you, Mr. Eskow, for being someone with full access to information and yet who picks and chooses, finds excuses to invalidate the side he chooses to disagree with. And please note I am not picking a side; there are no ‘right sides’ in this conflict.
Peter, there are many books by serious historians, many from Israel who do not agree with your point of view. The issues are quite clear, and most of what has been propagated in the US media for decades has been one-sided and does not reflect the reality of the situation.
Two books you might start with are "Ten Myths About Israel," by Ilan Pappe, and "The General's Son," by Miko Peled. Both of these men are Israeli and have done the work of understanding what is the truth about what is going on, and they have written about this. From there, you can find many other great sources you never knew existed. It's not always easy to find the answers, but it's easier now, than before, as there has been much obfuscation, but it can be done.
Thanks for the book recommendations Joy. I have read the summary preface of 10 myths; and it is not clear to me that there is disagreement with my “point of view”. As I stated, my view is that both sides have committed atrocities in the recent past, the October 7th terrorism of inhuman rape, torture, and murder by Hamas, and the totally disproportionate destruction and killing of Palestinians by the Israeli army. Could it be that you somehow endorse, justify, or deny the Oct 7th actions of Hamas? Could it be that you believe that the colonial nature of Israel’s founding somehow justifies rape, torture and murder? Or do you believe those accounts are merely Israeli propaganda? I hope not! And also, I believe there is no justification possible for the extreme violence from the Israeli army, nor for the violence and illegal mistreatment of Palestinians by Israeli settlers.
Trauma begets trauma in an endless cycle, where ideology trumps humanity.
One does not have to justify atrocities to still be able to understand that both-sidism does nothing but serve the interests of the dominant power.
There’s another interesting book about the British in East Africa, Imperial Reckoning: The Untold Story of Britain's Gulag in Kenya, published in the UK as Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya, is a 2005 non-fiction book written by Caroline Elkins and published by Henry Holt. It won the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction.” (Details per Wikipedia.)
When I heard about October 7, I thought of Mau Mau, the anti-colonial movement that did encompass anti-white atrocities. I don’t have to approve of those actions to know that blaming both sides would be to benefit the colonists, and aid in their attempt to continue the colonial project.
Well, if anyone is still reading this, my opinions are pretty obvious. I’ll say one thing: the denial of the October 7th atrocities undermines the legitimacy of the Gaza protests.
Just wanted to say the sadistic brutality of the israelis far outweighs that of the Palestinians. Read on the sabra and shatila massacre or even the recent massacres of palestinians in gaza conducted by israeli soldiers shooting at cars and people indiscriminately. there are videos of them sniping children as they walk holding white flags. The brutality is clear
In terms of the condemnation of Hamas the reluctance to do so is not borne out of a lack of moral qualms with their actions. But rather with an understanding of the disproportionate suffering that the palestinians have experienced for the last 75 years. If you put yourself in the place of the Palestinians then you'll understand why resistance is an act of basic human dignity. Brown and muslim people using weapons shouldn't alarm you as they are the same as any other people. What happened on oct 7 was an oppressed people breaking free from an illegal occupation and returning to the lands that they were ethnically cleansed from. This is not unjust to say the least. Any and all atrocities committed find their blame on the zionist state in the first place for establishing a settler colony at the expense of the Palestinians and having them pay the price for european antisemitism. It just doesn't make sense to expect Palestinians to be perfect victims and subsequently condemn them. criticisms are usually fine but not when a genocide is taking place or when the boot of zionism is on the necks of palestinians as it has been for decades.
Finally on October 7 itself there is some doubt about exactly what took place. of the 1100 people that were killed approximately 300-400 were soldiers. If you find their deaths objectionable then there's no point in having this discussion.
From the remaining 600-700 civilians its clear that at least 200 or so were killed by the israeli military as per the hannibal directive. For the israeli military at the time its clear that they issued directives to kill hostages as hamas was carrying them away. Ie they would rather have them dead than taken as hostages. This is documented in a haartez investifation. Furthermore no babies were burned by hamas, these were burned by israel that used mortar fire against them. There is also no evidence of systematic rape to say the least. if rape did happen its of course condemnable but there's just no evidence of it happened systematically.